# The Eight Levels of Programmers

**URL:** <https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194>\
**Category:** blog\
**Created:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 5

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**Author:** ![Kittensa](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/k/b77776/32.png) [@Kittensa](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Kittensa)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/81 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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holy crap im a #2 (no phun intended)…

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**Author:** ![Chris\_Noe](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/c/ebca7d/32.png) [@Chris\_Noe](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Chris_Noe)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/82 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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I know programmers, and Bill Gates is no programmer.

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**Author:** ![Jeremy](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/j/82dd89/32.png) [@Jeremy](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Jeremy)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/83 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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Jeff,

Please go back to the old font. Please god…

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**Author:** ![Mark\_Ransom](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/m/e36b37/32.png) [@Mark\_Ransom](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Mark_Ransom)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/84 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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Perhaps you could replace Dead with Timeless?

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**Author:** ![JohnOpincar](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@JohnOpincar](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/JohnOpincar)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/85 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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I first got paid to program when I was 16 and I’m 42 now. After 25 years and numerous opportunities to become a manager or change careers entirely, I’m still programming and still loving it. Aside from needing a bigger monitor and a better chair, not seeing anything stopping me from coding into my 50s. Aside from the eyes, my memory is getting a little weaker, but with the internet and intellisense, I can more than compensate.

They key to keeping things interesting for me has been changing industries and platforms from time to time.

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**Author:** ![Hoffmann](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/h/ea666f/32.png) [@Hoffmann](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Hoffmann)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/86 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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I want to be a billionair of course. I’m probably at the wrong time though, I should have been there in the 80s.

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**Author:** ![DavidD](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/d/ecc23a/32.png) [@DavidD](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/DavidD)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/87 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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what do you wanna do with your life

Make sure my kids grow up to remember me as a great dad. Programming has no bearing on my life goals, despite it being a passion of mine (along with music).

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**Author:** ![Tim\_Dowty](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@Tim\_Dowty](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Tim_Dowty)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/88 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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You forgot level 5.5: bburnt-out programmer/b:

- still coding at 51; reading blogs instead of producing product; worse still, commenting on blog posts…

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**Author:** ![Lxw](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/l/ac91a4/32.png) [@Lxw](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Lxw)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/89 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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what’s the purpose of this blog? is this just a daily brain-fart thing or what?

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**Author:** ![Arnaud](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Arnaud](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Arnaud)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/90 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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Here in France I often have the feeling that the career path for a programmer is to do not stay a programmer too long. Often programming is seen as an entry level position and there is a pressure to go towards project management or architect positions where you no longer code… Those of us who really enjoy programming and don’t want to do something else often show the US as a counter-example : but is it true ?

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**Author:** ![Carlos](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Carlos](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Carlos)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/91 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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DHH? From the fraction of programmers that are aware RoR exists, most of them don’t even know who he is…

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**Author:** ![Biswanath](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/b/dbc845/32.png) [@Biswanath](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Biswanath)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/92 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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My classification of myself was corporate programmer(day job) and cowboy programmer(endless nights).

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**Author:** ![Charles](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/c/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Charles](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Charles)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/93 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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Klingon programmers aspire to die in a glorious battle with system bugs regardless of skill level.

Qapla’!

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**Author:** ![dan10](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@dan10](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/dan10)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/94 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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You forgot programmer looking to be something else. Sometimes it’s a means to an end, time spent in the trenches and all that.

Lets call it stepping stone programmer.

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**Author:** ![chrispatterson](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@chrispatterson](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/chrispatterson)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/95 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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So I wonder where the Code Monkey would fall?

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**Author:** ![Nick](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/n/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Nick](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Nick)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/96 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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# Successful Programmer

# Famous Programmer

# Working Programmer

These are not ‘true’ levels because they are not distinct.

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**Author:** ![David](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@David](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/David)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/97 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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Bill Gates built a nice business on code he was involved with writing. I used and bought stuff from Microsoft back then. Seriously. I used their BASIC a lot, and bought a Fortran compiler (that I wound up rarely using).

Then came the big MS-DOS opportunity, when he bought an OS cheap, made a few quick changes, and sold it to IBM on extremely favorable terms. Since then, his success has depended far more on business actions than technical ability, but the technical ability is what got him in position to do the business stuff.

However, my big complaint is the assumption that programming is intended to get rich. I use it as a way to do a job I really like while getting paid a nice, but not extravagant, salary. I don’t want to get into management too far, and I don’t care enough about getting rich to do the things it would take. There are various legitimate goals in the world of software, and using it as a satisfying way to make a comfortable living is one of them.

In other words, I’m probably a 5, and happy there. The other stuff I want to do with my life doesn’t really involve software (although I wouldn’t stop programming just because I’d retired). Where do I go from there? Somewhere off your numeric list.

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**Author:** ![Sarah\_Mei](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Sarah\_Mei](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Sarah_Mei)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/98 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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@Arnaud - not really. Some larger companies (notably Microsoft) have a technical track that allows you to do more and more design without necessarily becoming a manager. Outside of that, the track is generally

developer - senior developer - development manager - ? - CTO  
(I’m not super interested in this track, so I’m not sure of the exact progression.)

Alternate paths include  
developer - senior developer\*  
and  
developer - senior developer - CTO of a startup\*  
and  
developer - senior developer - chief architect - hired by Google 😉

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**Author:** ![David](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@David](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/David)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/99 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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Well, as a 58-year old programmer, I can say that I spent an awful lot of my working life striving to get to the point where at least 80% of my working time could be spent actually coding. And I love it. In five years time (when I will be 63) I’d like to still be coding.

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**Author:** ![Terry\_Smith](https://discourse-cdn.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/t/ee7513/32.png) [@Terry\_Smith](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Terry_Smith)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/100 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")

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May I respectfully request you replace dead programmers with immortal programmers?

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