# The Eight Levels of Programmers

**URL:** <https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194>\
**Category:** blog\
**Created:** [April 3, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194 "2009-04-03T00:00:00Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 7

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**Author:** ![PawelB](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/p/ebca7d/32.png) [@PawelB](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/PawelB)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/121 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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A couple of years ago I run a survey on a developer group meeting asking people what they were doing then and what they wanted to do in a 5 years from that moment.

a href=[http://blog.brodzinski.com/2007/04/career-paths-for-not-only-developers.htmlResults](http://blog.brodzinski.com/2007/04/career-paths-for-not-only-developers.htmlResults) of the survey/a were at least a bit surprising. Anyway one thing which appeared was that keeping developer role in few years wasn’t very popular choice. Only one fourth of developers considered that as their career goal.

Most of the time being a developer isn’t seen as a very prestigious role (which is pretty wrong I believe). Usually people prefer to end up as architects or some kind of expert consultant.

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**Author:** ![Jeff](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jeff](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Jeff)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/122 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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I am a 4 and 1 at the same time! :)

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**Author:** ![Phil](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@Phil](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Phil)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/123 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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Oh I remember THAT question alright! I was asked the whole five year thing seven years ago during the interview for my current programming job. Little did I realise I would still be in the same company all these years later!

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**Author:** ![Chala](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/c/53a042/32.png) [@Chala](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Chala)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/124 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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Hey, you forgot Programmer who blogs rather than programming ;-)

That’s Jeff, the famous blogger (sorry, programmer). So, Jeff considers himself to be above than the working and unknown programmer?

Oh boy. Can you name someone from the development team that created the software for the first laser-powered aircraft? Of course not. They are all unknown programmers.

Do you know Mikhail Fursov and Lionel Le Folgoc? Of course not. And yet, you think you are a couple of levels above them, don’t you

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**Author:** ![kwahom](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/k/7c8e57/32.png) [@kwahom](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/kwahom)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/125 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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I got high… and now I’m programming at level 9… suckers!

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**Author:** ![driver235](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@driver235](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/driver235)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/126 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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Elves and Gnomes Programmers?  
Do they later become Famous or Dead/Immortal or Legendary?  
Success is for kids, real men change the game silently.

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**Author:** ![Martin](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@Martin](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Martin)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/127 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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I rather be ‘successful’ in everything in life than just be a dead  
programmer, let alone famous programmer. Balance is key to life.

Amen to that. While in 5 years I see myself still living as a programmer, thats not really what I want to do with my life. Don’t misunderstand me, I love what I do, but I don’t want to be still behind a desk when I’m 60, there are many things I want to do (travel around the world, make a band and play in nightclubs, paint) and I don’t want to wait to my retirement. Sure, I CAN do these thing for 20, 30, even 40 years more, but that’s definitely not what I WANT to do…

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**Author:** ![LeptoS](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/l/22d042/32.png) [@LeptoS](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/LeptoS)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/128 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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Jeff -

In which category should we put Tony (C.A.R.) Hoare? He’s probably saved more CPU cycles than anyone on the planet.

- Lepto

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**Author:** ![RandomC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/r/97f17d/32.png) [@RandomC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/RandomC)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/129 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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I work for a big technology consultancy and I see a lot of bad programming. But this bad programming isn’t always because it’s written by bad programmers.

Most bad programming I see is down to the conflict between Getting something done now and doing something properly . And the blame of this lays exclusively at the feet of project managers who a lot of they time have zero software development experience. They can split tasks up nicely on a gantt chart, but they don’t understand the complexities of programming.

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**Author:** ![codinghorror](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/user_avatar/discourse.codinghorror.com/codinghorror/32/36371_2.png) [@codinghorror](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/codinghorror)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/130 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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As for all you guys babbling about how people are missing the point of the post … what is the point?

Where do you see yourself in five years?

My suggestion is to look at programmers you respect, or for that matter _anyone_ you respect in any field, and think about what they accomplished in their career – and how.

It’s about picking a direction rather than floating through life like that feather in Forrest Gump, or that plastic bag in American Beauty. I know because I used to be that feather, that plastic bag, until 2004.

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**Author:** ![Chris](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@Chris](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Chris)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/131 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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I’m probably at a 4.79. However I look forward to 9 as I’m positive c# is alive and well in Heaven.

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**Author:** ![pete](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/p/3ab097/32.png) [@pete](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/pete)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/132 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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Unknown Programmer and Bad programmer. Did somebody say Microsoft Access.

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**Author:** ![Ben](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Ben)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/133 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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1 vote for changing dead to immortal

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**Author:** ![MathewF](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/m/5f8ce5/32.png) [@MathewF](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/MathewF)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/134 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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I always answer Where do you see yourself in five years with Fugitive from justice.

Everyone laughs – and if they don’t then you probably don’t want to work there.

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**Author:** ![Charles](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/c/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Charles](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Charles)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/135 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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@Jeff Atwood:

It’s about picking a direction rather than floating through life like that feather in Forrest Gump, or that plastic bag in American Beauty. I know because I used to be that feather, that plastic bag, until 2004.

That’s a bit melodramatic isn’t it?

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**Author:** ![oops](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/o/74df32/32.png) [@oops](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/oops)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/136 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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Wow great list. You could re-use it for a lot of different disciplines. I’m a 4-5 Industrial Designer. Did you notice in the comments people rank themselves as somewhere in between? I guess no one wants to be perfectly pegged just as you have called it or seen as static.

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**Author:** ![Aarti](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/a/34f0e0/32.png) [@Aarti](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Aarti)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/137 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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Under the interviewee hood: My greatest strength is that I can spin my greatest weakness as my greatest strength. Mwahhaha!

Cringe-worthy during interviews but certainly introspection-worthy

Very interesting were the subtle distinctions between Unknown Programmer and Average Programmer and Famous Programmer and Successful Programmer.

Nice post Jeff!

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**Author:** ![NIck3](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/n/2bfe46/32.png) [@NIck3](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/NIck3)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/138 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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Sorry man, love your columns in general, but… You are equating levels of programming competence with fame and peer worship. Totally disagree with the idea that mastery equals Big Business Success or Idolized Godlike Aspect.

I propose instead:

I program because I need to get things done, and I get them done. I know what needs to be built and what doesn’t. I build the smallest possible system with the maximum impact. I advise and mentor others to help them achieve their best. I live modestly and within my means. I enjoy my life and the pleasures my work brings. I don’t need a Wikipedia entry or acolytes, or to be featured in xkcd comics.

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**Author:** ![NIck4](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@NIck4](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/NIck4)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/139 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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PS, I recognize that your article is tongue in cheek, but nonetheless it is thought provoking and therefore worthy of comment :)

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**Author:** ![Shishberg](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shishberg](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/u/Shishberg)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.codinghorror.com/t/the-eight-levels-of-programmers/194/140 "2009-04-04T00:00:00Z")

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Just adding myself to the chorus of people pointing out that (a) Knuth and Kay are still very much alive and (b) using the phrase dead programmer figuratively is _not_ a good use of the English language.

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