The Interview With The Programmer

This is similar to people who get upset with pro athletes for not knowing the big names in the history of their sport.

I recognized Donald Knuth’s name, but then I looked him up on Wikipedia and apparently didn’t know a damn thing about him. Oh well. I probably just saw his name on this site at some point, likely from one of the book reviews.

Jeff takes out stick and whacks the hornets nest again, way to go!

If you don’t like it, quit subscribing, quit reading, quit being so pompous and commenting on how superior you are.

For me, I doubt that these people would ever come up in an interview, but if someone were discussing the correct way to write Java, and they did not know of Bloch, I would have to wonder. Where did this person learn these things?

LOL, love your musings Jeff but I think someone is just filling ‘dead air’ here.

I only vaguely recognised Knuth and I’ve programmed for 20 years. Reading their papers and books may make me a better programmer but remembering their names won’t, it’s just trivia.

If an interviewer struck me off his list of potential candidates for this I’d think ‘good luck’ (and probably thank my lucky stars).

I’d say that this is an immediate retarded statement:

"I also realized Coders at Work can potentially serve as a job interview filter. If the next programmer you interview can’t identify at least one of the programmers interviewed in Coders at Work and tell you roughly what they’re famous for …

Frances Allen Joe Armstrong Joshua Bloch
Bernie Cosell Douglas Crockford L. Peter Deutsch
Brendan Eich Brad Fitzpatrick Dan Ingalls
Simon Peyton Jones Donald Knuth Peter Norvig
Guy Steele Ken Thompson Jamie Zawinski

… I’d say that’s an immediate no-hire. "

What in the world would that have to do with hiring a young kid out of college who can not only code but can provide conceptual solutions, learn the business, and work hard? Geeez.

“If the next programmer you interview can’t identify at least one of the programmers interviewed in Coders at Work and tell you roughly what they’re famous for …”

That is a pretty arbitrary thing to disqualify someone for – but I guess to each their own.

The only requirement that I make when I hire someone is that they can solve a Rubik’s cube in under 60 seconds while naming the previous U.S. presidents in alphabetical order.

I started reading the books few days ago after reading “Founders at Work”, another good book. I usually skip the “How did you start programming” to save time. I have read too many TRS80/Apple II stories.

Being a developer using Microsoft tools for long, I noticed there are tons of tools being used out there. At Google, for instance, they use stuff I never heard of.

There are so many good programmers out there, this book could be in volumes.

+1 for Ian Bell. Likewise Paul Collingwood, Owais Shah and Ravi Bopara

I see where Jeff is coming from. If you don’t care about your craft, you are never going to be a master. Competent, certainly. Master, never.

That’s the inescapable truth. As long as you are doing rout work, just going with the flow of whatever framework is the latest fad, you can be perfectly competent, but you are just not pushing the limits.

If you are pushing the limits, then you’ll get to talk to people, to learn what was tried, what worked, what didn’t. You’ll build upon he work of others.

If you aren’t interested enough in computer science to know at least some of the important people in the field, you aren’t, and never will be, a master.

And if you think that list is too limited, you may be partially right. But I’m pretty sure Jeff would hire you if you answered you don’t know any of them, but you know X, Y and Z because of this and that. It shows you CARE about the profession, instead of it being just a day-job.

So, complain away as much as you want. I wouldn’t hire you either.

Its funny, because if someone asked me that question in an interview, I wouldn’t take the job. :slight_smile:

Of course it’s only a joke, but it is interesting to compare this with Jeff’s other interview joke:

"What’s the worst code you’ve seen recently?

If their answer isn’t immediately and without any hesitation these two words:

My own.

Then you should end the interview immediately."

It seems for Jeff it’s not what you know, it’s who you know.

Do the blokes of the list all know each other or would they “no-hire” themselves?

Good stuff. But it makes me wonder…

With all the statements Jeff has made about who he would not hire, would he would even pass his own tests? :stuck_out_tongue:

ahh jeff u never learn do u…?

Oh god. Why is everyone who writes a comment here so massively insecure?

Breton says, “Just… what exactly have you been doing all those 10-20 years?”

That is exactly the point, though. You can’t tell me what someone has been doing for 10-20 years based on whether they can cite specific people or works.

Like many people here, I could only tell you I’ve heard of Knuth’s name, but I couldn’t tell you what he’s known for. Of course, now I know he authored The Art of Computer Programming and creted TeX … but it seems odd that such trivia, gathered in mere seconds through Wikipedia, should really make all the difference in calcuating my business value.

Breton continues, “Never bothered to read a book, or a blog about programming?”

Not to speak for DigitalMoto, but of course that is nonsense.

Personally, if someone was to ask me about influential works I would rhyme off names like Hunt, Thomas, Myers, Dikstra, Liskov, Fowler, McConnell, Sutter, Stroustrup, Abrash, etc, etc, etc … I’d even throw a prop out to Joel and Jeff, despite them having an affinity for controversy lately.

Jeff almost makes a great point in this post: That it is important to guage how much potential programmer candidates care about their craft, and if they are passionate enough to set aside some precious time for independent study.

… but he can of blew it with that narrow list.

Two thoughts: with the state of software development today, all the work that needs doing and not enough people to do it, shouldn’t your interviews be geared more to why anyone would want to work for your company? Sure, there’s the paycheck, but unless you sell your company to someone, then all they’re in it for is the paycheck, as far as you know.

Secondly, so what if someone’s just exchanging their time for money? Does absolutely everyone have to be a hobbyist too? Do riveters have to obsess about riveting all the time?

Demanding that someone invest their personal time into their “craft” (i.e. your job) is presumptuous and erodes the 40-hour workweek the same as an on-call phone or forced overtime. Have some respect for the grey-collar working man. Let him spend the time that you expect him to learn this stuff with his family instead. Pay him fairly for his work and let him go home to enjoy his life, not study to impress you.

“I also realized Coders at Work can potentially serve as a job interview filter. If the next programmer you interview can’t identify at least one of the programmers interviewed in Coders at Work and tell you roughly what they’re famous for … [snip] … I’d say that’s an immediate no-hire.”

Uh, as so many have pointed out already, that’s quite the non sequitur indeed. It’s like asking a potential porn film actress if she can identify at least one famous porn star, else, I’d say that’s an immediate no-hire. She’s a hotty, knows all the positions, and is willing to do… anything, but oh, doesn’t know who jenna jameson is, well, that’s it, show her the door.

However, if you were looking to hire dweeb tech fanboys who quiver, spasm, and emit “nerd laughs” at the sight of computers or Bill Gates, I guess this would be an excellent interview filter.

Funny…I’m a scripter, not an exceptional programmer, and I recognized and could talk about two of the list (one of whom I had spoken to in the distant past). I would expect that anyone serious about programmer or at least googling a programming solution would have encountered JWZ.

@Chritian - You are either brilliant or incredibly paranoid. Time will tell, my friend.

I think the criticisms here are a valid, but the stones (from the safety of anonymity) being thrown are unnecessary. If you read Jeff regularly, then you know he’s an enthusiastic guy. If I jumped down my friends throats this hard every time they said something stupid, I’d have no friends. By all means, call him out. But cut him the same amount of slack you would for a person sitting in the same room as you. On a personal level, I’d just like to believe that the people that I share my interests with aren’t so da*n bitter. And not so willing to argue about the 1% of ridiculousness in the 99% of a good article.