What Can Men Do?

1st : this discourse thing makes it hard to post a comment on correct item - i just won’t read every 300 entries - so the reply is to the first thing shown. Blame discourse (the old thing ro make coddinghorror comments was easier to use)

2nd: Don’t attempt romantic relationships at work.
Studies shown that most relationships - are not funded in internet or dating sites. Even not in clubs or at festivals. Most relationships are funded AT WORK. So destroy a natural thing with a stupid rule.

3rd no alcohol: Typical american. Take of your american glasses, in other parts of the world that is a natural thing. A work party without alcohol mostly means: out of 100 people only 10 go to the party. If you have free food.

4th think about why you think that you need more women in a job? The university of Bremen overs: Software Eng. solely for women. No math! No men! Easier! And no big chance for a job afterwards.

Is that what you want? A sterile work environment where nobody should have contact with others except for work things? The studies that shown that mixed teams produce better outcomes have also 2 interesting things :smile (I dont wan’t a smile, bad discourse thingy, i want":")

  1. the output gets better with one women in group. if more then one women is in the group the output decreases
  2. the output of the women in the team is irrelevant. The output of the males in a team gets better.

And now take some time and think…

Does anybody remember “Masters of the universe” , “Star Wars action figures” and so on?

Even boys have dolls…

I personally think the intense focus on programmers is shortsighted. It saddens me that most of what I see is where popular culture happens to point out or become popular on the blogosphere or tumblerverse. This kind of discussion needs to happen at all levels of society and not just the elite.

This quote, from a great article, frames up the issues facing women in the much larger ecosystem of technology in general (emphasis is mine):

Beyond the layers of middle- and working-class American workers who make the work of Silicon Valley possible, there is a huge workforce invisible to most Americans who manufacture our electronics. I’m hopeful that most people are generally aware of the working conditions in some of these manufacturing plants in Asia, India, and South America: 14 hour work days, worker suicides, living on-site at the factory in cramped barracks, workers going into debt just to get a job, and allegations of use of child labor.

What many may not know is a huge portion of the workers in these factories are women-- and they are usually in the lower-level, most gruelling positions. While it is difficult to identify with people you may never actually meet, or conditions you can’t personally see, each of us in the US really shows our callousness to these women every time we buy a cell phone without considering how it was made. Ultimately, while much of the work to change these labor conditions will come from activists on the ground, people in the U.S. have a powerful role to play as major consumers of these electronics.

When we consider feminist and anti-racist activism in the tech world, we ought to ask ourselves what will make the lives of the most marginalized and underrepresented groups in tech better. While as a woman programmer, the weight of brogrammer sexism feels overwhelming to me, a part of me asks: how many women’s lives will I actually improve if I focus only on fighting brogrammers? What would the women who made my iPhone think if I spent all my time fighting for codes of conduct at conferences I go to, and none fighting for better labor conditions for factory workers?

Moreover, how many people’s lives could we improve if instead of worrying about whether VCs fund enough women, we instead advocated for redistributing their wealth back to the people whose labor they became wealthy on? I realize these kinds of questions are sensitive to bring up, and I don’t want to dismiss the existing work of amazing activists in the tech world. But at some point, if we truly care about ending sexism, racism, and classism in technology, we have to recognize that tech justice goes way beyond the lives of marginalized people in the world of programming.

And to tie this back to the original article. Take a moment to consider that 'puter that your kid is dragging around. Another article puts it into perspective:

Have you ever thought about how the metal parts in your smartphone were sourced? If you’re a proud owner of an Apple device, that could be shocking for you to learn that Guardian found last year that unregulated tin mines, Apple’s suppliers, employed child labour, damaged local environment and caused 100-150 miner fatalities on average every year. Perhaps, you would feel guilty using your iPhone now, wouldn’t you?

I realize that this isn’t how popularity works, and that in the grand scheme of things doing something for social-justice is good no matter how it came about, but please take this moment to consider the plight of those affected that don’t have as strong of a voice in the popularity contest of concerns.

My community college told me that the point of which most girls decide computers is not what girls play with is roughly around middle school. They where taught this from peers, their parents, and parents of their peers that proper girls play with computers (this also includes video games, etc.). I have no evidence to support this other than what my teacher has told us for what she was going to do for the summer, which was teach a summer class full of middle school girls the basics of programming.
This divide has also made a safe haven for sexists (and generally do*chenozzles) in the industry. I can’t be the only guy that get annoyed with these people.
Anyways, that’s my 2 cents.

It’s called confirmation bias. That is the reason the older generation in many fields have to die off or retire before new theories start to be accepted.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0156033909

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There are reasons for everything. The problem is that sometimes they’re bad reasons, and not everything is worthy of support.

For instance, a hypothetical group of people who are collectively angry at the same perceived enemies, and who are used to talking amongst themselves with little need to be respectful of those who they disagree with, may develop a community standard saying that hateful attacks on their perceived enemies are OK simply because they all find those attacks satisfying and cathartic.

I wouldn’t call that a good reason, and I wouldn’t say that once they begin interacting with people outside their group, outsiders are obligated to support that particular standard. In fact, that standard is an example of what’s wrong with epistemic closure – it degrades your ability to have meaningful or persuasive interactions with anyone outside your group.

Oh hey look… A radfem comment.

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What do you know about libfem and radfem, Jeff?

I liked this post. But everywhere I see the topic “what men can do” for women to get them in tech industry. How about “What women can do?”. I do not have long list of points to showcase here, but I do have one opinion.

For understanding why men dominate, we must have to go to the root of issue. The identity of men defines in two ways. A man can be physically strong or he can be mentally strong(which is his intelligence). Men are genetically engineered to be aggressive, and they show aggressiveness to hold on to their identities. The source for aggressiveness is his ego. Male ego is not bad. Ego helps them to be aggressive which will make men to test themselves, to push off the limits.
When women confronts this same ego, they are actually challenging the identity of men. Women tend to be very communicative. Their strongest point. But when women challenge men’s identity by shouting from roof tops with wicked twinkle in the eye and say “see we are more intelligent and efficient than you” (which is true many times), men cannot just take it and only do what they do the best. bullying!.. I’d say if you cannot beat them then join them. Don’t confront or challenge the men’s ego. tame it. Men knows best to tame other men ego and make them work for them. They only challenge their enemies ego. If women are good doing something just do it and show off but quietly and casually, like you do it from back of your hand. Then whole arena is yours and may surpass men and men won’t even notice it…

Humility is actually a trait of great men and women. People who achieve great lengths in their life show humility, which actually calms everything and everyone down. Even ego stoked men will bow down.

Oh and if my grammar or sentence construction is not good, please excuse me.

My problem with the rule against “well-actually’s” is this: sometimes the misunderstanding we’re WAing a person on is one that informs their software design, and correcting it can prevent anything from a one-line bug to an unnecessary project. What should we do instead of a WA if we fear the consequences of leaving a mistake uncorrected? Particularly if it’s by a stranger, and not someone we can get in touch with afterward?

Most recent research I can find shows that work is around 22% of the places people who met offline and eventually get married, met:

The other 78% is not at work.

Surprisingly, 35% of people meet online these days:

Therefore I question your statements that “most relationships are founded at work” and “most relationships are not founded on the Internet”.

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Great post. You have raised a lot of issues and conjectures that I could debate for hours, but I’ll just pick a couple things to comment on. One, on your five-point list of what to do: That totally makes sense, but the more I think about those rules, the more it is clear to me that everyone should apply those rules of basic professionalism and courtesy in every work environment. (The alcohol rule is up for debate but that seems to be covered in other comments.)

Two, I just want it to be known that there are welcoming workplaces out there for women in tech, and I am in one of them. My company’s leaders work actively and diligently (and, to add to the list of conjectures, perhaps leadership diligence is another path towards bridging the tech gender gap) to recognize employees for their professional strengths, without regard to gender or appearance.

Again, thank you for posting!

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This always surprises me when I hear about it in other companies. In my groups we regularly have a Friday social afternoon event that involves drinking. Either someone brings in a particular drink they are fond of, nice bottle of scotch, or we just grab from the left overs of previous weeks. The standard is one drink, only seen someone go over two a handful of times.

Perhaps the difference is the event emphasizes socializing and not drinking. It’s usually a good mix of people with 5+ years experience and newer hires. Mostly chatting about notable events of the week and reminiscing about horror stories from the past.

I spent some time reading through her feed and thought it was fantastic.

It’s easy to see feminism as an academic field of study where people gather into lecture halls and share ideas about literature and historical events and how they relate to gender inequality but if you want to enter the feminist conversation you have to realize that it’s unbelievably emotionally charged.

Being civil isn’t a requisite for engaging in feminism. The issues here are real and substantial, and they aren’t getting resolved by people being cool-headed and talking about fallacies and exchanging counter-points and commending each other on the the absence of curse words in their arguments. You built on Shanley’s idea, insulted her original work, blocked her, and then (initially) refused to credit her because you didn’t like her attitude. That’s not only totally unethical in terms of the way we share ideas with each other, but it also contributed to the problem you had hoped to work towards solving by pushing a woman out of the spotlight to take that place for yourself because you thought you could explain it better.

You got called some names and you deserved it - even though you are trying to do the right thing - even though you’re trying to be civil and agreeable - even though you thought you were totally justified and maybe don’t really understand why people are upset about it. There is a lot of history and emotion and hardship and struggling at play here and if you fuck up you’ll run into some vitriol and you just have to sort of deal with it until you eventually Get It.

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I’m not talking about the “absence of curse words”, I’m talking about hate.

Let’s compare these two public Tweets:

Someone was fired from their job for the former. I have no particular stake in whether that was the right outcome or not. My point is simply that hate expressed toward fellow human beings is not acceptable.

I’m not offended by the statement directed at me, though I will say it seems wildly disproportionate to the criticism it is a response to. (The bottom-most tweet predates my blog post.) But, because I am a real person, a lot like you, I turn off when people say things like this to me. Rather than having a dialog, or becoming a potential ally – I switch off. I stop hearing whatever it is you have to say. And I would argue that many, many outside observers do as well, because people naturally recoil from hate directed at their fellow human beings.

Is that effective activism?

It’s not like these are isolated incidents; the feed is full of hate exactly like this, directed at many other people. What I find particularly sickening is that other people are willing to “favorite” this hate.

If that kind of hate directed at fellow human beings is something you find “fantastic”, I don’t think there’s much we have in common. And as I said earlier:

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Sure there is. I mean we don’t know each other but I’ve been a fan of yours for many years and always enjoyed and identified with your commentary on software and life and community. The things you’ve been saying in this thread also hit home because I had by and large the same opinions a few years ago when I was first confronted with this uncomfortable, confrontational, emotional feminism and didn’t really get where it was coming from.

I don’t just find “hate directed at fellow human beings” fantastic. I find someone lashing out against sexism in the tech industry to be fantastic. If it’s big and loud and fun to read then I like that even more. I like it because I agree with the values and I’ve done my best to understand where the anger comes from and now I feel I have enough background to agree with the anger and enjoy the sarcasm and commentary that comes from it. I don’t enjoy seeing someone get hurt. I do enjoy seeing someone getting called out for hurting another.

I don’t think hatred is unacceptable, although of course I think it can come from an unacceptable place (racism would be an obvious example). Shanley, too, is a real person, and it’s perfectly acceptable for real people to have and express real emotions - including powerful ones. Keep in mind that public feminists (and many public female figures, really) deal with the same condescension, derailing, gas lighting, erasure, and overall abuse day in and day out. Have a look at this, for example. Maybe they just develop a hair trigger over time. Can you blame them?

I get it. I said this out of personal experience:

It sucks, but you should do it anyway because this is important. The subject is emotionally charged and backed by real struggles and not everyone is open to calmly explaining why some things are bad even though everyone does them and it seems fine.

Is it effective activism? I don’t know. Maybe not everything needs to be effective activism on behalf of feminists everywhere. Maybe it can just be a personal twitter account. I don’t think whether or not you decide to work against sexism in tech should be based on whether you deem someone’s feminism effective. I think that someone’s struggling is valid regardless of their tone. One doesn’t cancel out the other.

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I’m sorry that you feel hate is an acceptable response to other human beings. We disagree on this point. It is a dark, dark world indeed where reciprocal hate is an acceptable solution to whatever problems we are facing. It’s a world I personally don’t want any part of, and I don’t want my children to have any part of.

So what you’re really saying is this:

In other words, if a fight is important to you, fight nasty. If that means lying, lie. If that means insults, insult.

If that means spreading hate… spread hate.

I think there are plenty of people who speak on this topic who manage to do it in a very compelling way, without amplifying hate for fellow human beings.

I will choose to listen to, and echo those voices.

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Stuff like this is really funny when you’ve grasped where both geeky and Asperger’s traits spring from.
Diversity isn’t about what’s between the legs, any diversity that effects software design decisions is about what’s in between the ears. :wink:
Geeks as a whole are a pretty diverse bunch already, Asperger’s geeks even more so.
Don’t worry too much about not having many females in technology, you’ve already got more than enough feminine influence. :wink:
Obviously this still means that any woman who wants to work in technology should be allowed to do so, and not discouraged from doing so, but there is no need to sweat a 50:50 ratio.

We’ve had a week to discuss this and at this point the conversation is starting to repeat itself. Thanks for a civil, respectful dialog to everyone who contributed.

This topic is now closed. New replies are no longer allowed.

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