Holy War, Holy War nonwithstanding… …some thoughts…
Yes you can run *nix tools on Windows. You can scrub the floor with a toothbrush instead of a mop too… …I’ve used Cygwin and Linux and now OS X and there is simply no comparison to working on a *nix machine and having access to both Apache as it exists on server environment + CLI shell power + proprietary graphics tools (i.e. Adobe). Cygwin is an inelegant hack in which you’ll spend frustrating moments hunting down why a given package is not working right or quirky behavior fostered from running a “simulated *nix” experience.
If your target server platform is Windows, then working w/Windows is a no-brainer. But if you’re going to do LAM(P|R) development, you’re depriving yourself of available tools. While no fan of DHH and Rails Kool-Aid quaffers, that is the point of his statement about working for 37Signals. They do Rails applications on F/OSS server platform so Windows really doesn’t make sense.
And if you are locked into Windows realm for web application development, Windows is going to be your sole focus as your deployment options are limited to Windows. Not so with F/OSS tools — while development is better done with computing machines in the same platform, its customer base is wide open to any platform.
While I’ve read some really good stuff here, this is a low point for the site…
Which also means when you’re using Rails and OS X, you’re using the platform of choice for douchebags.
Now, see, as soon as I read this I expected to see some qualifying statement about how absolutely funny and ironic you were being. As it stands this is even worse than DHH’s original comment. At the very least he didn’t resort to name-calling.
I’ll quote you: “is it necessary to paint with such a broad brush?”
Honestly, usually your posts are insightful and interesting. What the hell is this? Just another bloody religious war you claim to hate so much. I’m amazed you could even overlook it. So… Congratulations, you’ve sunk to his level. You’re my hero. See how stupidly easy it is to drip with sarcasm and disdain?
How is this post where you slam David and get a bunch of people to cheer for you different than David slamming Windows programmers and getting a bunch of people to cheer for him?
It’s different because I am criticizing one person’s specific behavior that is negative and counterproductive for his OWN PLATFORM. DHH essentially said “if you use Windows, you suck”. There’s no way I’d touch OS X or Rails based on DHH’s “advocacy”. If anything I’d double-down on Windows just to prove him wrong.
Just as we don’t believe (surprise surprise) that all programming languages are more-or-less the same. or that all web frameworks are more-or-less the same.
Not really what I said; the end result is the same as Samurai Shodown. Either you win the fight (make money with a product) or you lose the fight. Judge by the results; every playable character is competitive in the right hands. Unless your argument is that Windows and Windows development tools are so crippled that they can never produce competitive software products or websites, then we’re misunderstanding each other.
Wow … I code in Rails and do it from a Mac. That makes me a douchebag?
No, not at all.
When I said “Which also means when you’re using Rails and OS X, you’re using the platform of choice for douchebags” I meant it only in the sense that DHH is a self-anointed advocate of that platform. He’s leading the way, blazing a trail, and encouraging like-minded people to come with him.
So no, I don’t think all Mac/Rails users are douchebags, only those that emulate DHH. Sorry if this wasn’t clear.
In response to the comment that “it’s a poor craftsman who blames his tools…”
The choice of tools is critically important. The entire course of human development is marked by the use of tools and the creation of new and better tools. If you’ve ever tried to change a spark plug with an open-end wrench you’ll appreciate a proper spark plug socket. I recently watched a crew building a new deck. They used heavy-duty electric saws and pneumatic nail guns. How much longer would it have taken them to use hand saws and claw hammers? And how many corners do you think they might have cut to save work in the process?
The history of warfare is marked by improvements in the tools of combat. Armies with armour defeated armies without. Armies with gunpowder defeated armies with swords. Despite the occasional extremely clever commander who defeated a better-equipped opponent, the odds of winning are greatly with the group that had the better tools and technology.
The industrial revolution came about because people developed new tools - powered looms and spinning wheels and the means to turn them. These tools made it possible to produce better, more consistent cloth in less time with less labour. The Luddites who got mad about it were the people who didn’t know how to use these new tools and were consequently put out of work.
Choosing the best tools for the job doesn’t guarantee success but it certainly increases the odds. You may be able to write brilliant code in PDP-11 assembler, but if you’re staking your career, earnings, and satisfaction on it, then before you choose that as your tool set you should probably consider developing at least a working familiarity with the tools used by the leaders in your field.
This is an odd post. You read something that offended you and decided to retaliate by calling the offender a douchebag. That’s class.
Try thinking this way:
If somebody says something and you get really offended by it; chances are whatever they said was in direct contrast to a belief of yours. Not a well-reasoned idea you’ve formed over time, but a belief you hold onto religiously. It doesn’t even have to be for something you care a lot about.
Outward criticism is the best opportunity to look at yourself and see if there’s something worth changing, be it your toolset, your work ethic, or even your approach with relationships.
Perhaps you’re right in saying there is no clear-defined best toolset available for programmers. I can definitely say that the tools I’ve used on Windows don’t provide anything close to the seamless work environment provided by the workstation I use.
Naum - agreed, but im a linux user
My tools of choice for now are python the cream text editor.
Cross platform and nice to work with. Ruby looks nice and i may use it when its suitable though. Ruby on Rails is not nice.
I don’t think he was just saying, if you use Windows, you suck. Rather, by using Windows and its widely accepted label of mediocrity, you’re approving of that mediocrity and making it a part of your programming. He’s almost trying to say that you just don’t care about your platform, and that as a software developer, you should. As the vast majority of people that switched to Mac or Linux have never looked back on their Windows days, your lack of willingness to switch exudes apathy. Now, the people that actually like Windows are limited, but existing. I suppose for those people, there would be nothing wrong with using Windows. In the article, he is mostly criticizing those who know about/want a Mac/Linux but don’t feel like switching.
I’ve had too many careers to give a shit what anyone thinks about what tools/platforms I currently use. Next year I could be doing embeded Logo for all I care- so long as it’s fun and challenging.
I’m so bored of these people that espouse one platform over another simply because of some irrational, unfounded semi-religious nonsense used an an excuse to classify themselves as “superior” to everyone else.
If you listen to these noisy people to much, you could be fooled into thinking their beliefs actually had some foundation in reality. The rest of the world will continue to choose tools based on sound business reasons and these guys can continue to masturbate in the corner.
the other form of platform evangelism that is guaranteed to piss me off even more than someone blindly slagging me off for using Windoze (I HAVE to coz I am at work, but really, all the stuff I use, e.g. Komodo, is platform independent. I have it on my work PC, my home mac etc etc) is some website that wont even display for me unless it is viewed with firefox. The internet is no place for 'mentalism!!!
I’ve met in person a bunch of people who develop Rails on a Mac, and I’m not aware of a single person doing it as a fashion statement, or because DHH said so. I’m pretty sure they all chose Rails, or the Mac, or both, because those tools fit their hands better.
Also, your samurai analogy isn’t very fitting. Are you saying devs should deliberately hobble themselves with the biggest burden, just so they can school their friends as to how badass they are? DHH would be right to reject an interviewee with that kind of attitude.
Maybe you could kick my ass with the fat Texan guy. That doesn’t mean I should choose that character. And it doesn’t mean that people who choose, um, some other character (sorry, I don’t know the names; I was more of a Tempest kid) are douchebags, even if they vocally proclaim the superiority of, um, other-character-guy.
Anyway, it isn’t a zero-sum game. Unless you make handheld instruments, we’re not even playing in the same arcade.
So I linked this up on ruby.reddit.com. Apologies in advance for any resultant flamers.
I don’t know where I stand on this. I’ve used unix my entire professional career. Yet, at home I’ve kept with a Windows box for gaming. I have perl/python/ruby/emacs installed on every Windows machine I ever have to spend a serious amount of time with. That’s generally what I like with using OSS dev tools over Microsoft dev tools – I can use them anywhere.
People port these things to mobile phones. It’s ridiculous.
But the other half of it is that I’m pretty clueless with the Microsoft dev tools.
I’ve actually been tempted at getting a Mac lately because I think it might handle my desire to use a unix OS without having to deal with using linux for day-to-day things like ripping DVDs and playing video games.
I like DHH, Rails, my Mac, this blog, and I don’t like Windows. I’m pretty sure I’m some kind of douchebag, but I really don’t understand why you decided to write this article.
We all know you’re a Windows programmer, Jeff. Let the douchebags rant about which platform is better and don’t let them get to you. Post this in the comments of DHH’s writings, not as an article on Coding Horror.
i don’t think this is news to anyone. everyone has known for a long time that the rails/osx contingency is made up of the biggest bunch of douches ever.
the difference is that people can stop being douches.
windows will never stop sucking ass.
I thought DHH was pro 80-20 thinking(and FUCK YOU if you aren’t).
I’d think that OS/framework choice lies more in the 20% realm.
Sure, I use Rails myself. But I’m sure I could use some other language/framework or even none at all and the important parts: my ideas and creativity would still manage to rear their heads from underneath all the stigma.
I’m developing Rails on Windows, and not really giving a shit about the Windows part. I somehow doubt I’d give a shit about the OSX/Linux part if they were in the equation.
